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IHSAA add Tradition Factor

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"Under the new system, schools will earn one point for a sectional championship, two points for a regional championship, three for a semi-state title and four for a state championship. If a school earns six or more points during a specified two-year period – which would be two state championship appearances – that school would compete in the next highest enrollment class for the ensuing two seasons. Tournament success for the 2011-12 and ’12-’13 school years will determine classifications for 2013-14."

http://blogs.indystar.com/preps/2012/06/22/ihsaa-votes-in-sixth-class-for-football-tradition-factor-for-team-sports/

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Stupid is as stupid does...and you can count on the IHSAA for always being stupid. Those that voted for it should step down off the IHSAA board.

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You can compare the IHSAA to the NCAA with the "dumb" decision department. Anyone that voted for this moronic proposal is unfit to serve on their kangaroo board :P

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This was done because of football but basketball is a different animal, A team with one or two superstars in basketball could have great suscess then those kids graduate and the next classes are stuck playing up a class.

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1340446684[/url]' post='86725']

This was done because of football but basketball is a different animal, A team with one or two superstars in basketball could have great suscess then those kids graduate and the next classes are stuck playing up a class.

That's exactly what I'm thinking, as a Loogootee basketball fan. Last year the Lions won a state title, and graduated one of their "stars". This year the team could have as many as eight Seniors. The team should be pretty good, and certainly a Regional title isn't an impossible dream. If they win a Regional, almost the entire team graduates, and the next classes play in 2A for a couple of years...

Then again, I am still in favor of going back to single-class basketball, so I won't complain TOO loudly if LHS is "forced" to play against 2A teams. :-)

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A couple good points have been made here. A team could have a really good class and win a couple semi-states or win a regional and then make it to the state the next year and win it (Rockville) and then have several kids graduate. That would then force a team with several new kids playing varsity the next year to play up a class. If the IHSAA would add that a team plays up "if" a team has at least 2 starters that return or something along those lines it would makes a little more sense. I don't understand throwing a young team to the wolves this way.

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Something had to be done. Remember it isn't just about basketball. If you look at all sports in the class era, and frankly if you just use a little common sense, you can see that it is not close to being a level playing field. Private schools in metro areas totally dominate in most sports. You need look no further than Muncie Burris in girls volleyball to see there is a problem.

I don't know if this is the best solution or not, but I have no doubt that the IHSAA board members have the best interest of all Indiana high school athletes at heart and I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt and see how this works out.

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That's debatable if ALL IHSAA board members "have the best interest of all Indiana high school athletes at heart." I for one believe some serve on the board for their own selfish interests of the their schools and the heck with everyone else.

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Something had to be done. Remember it isn't just about basketball. If you look at all sports in the class era, and frankly if you just use a little common sense, you can see that it is not close to being a level playing field. Private schools in metro areas totally dominate in most sports. You need look no further than Muncie Burris in girls volleyball to see there is a problem.

I don't know if this is the best solution or not, but I have no doubt that the IHSAA board members have the best interest of all Indiana high school athletes at heart and I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt and see how this works out.

And that's exactly why class sports *%#!?* to begin with. There's no way to ever ever ever ever "level the playing field", so don't even start trying it. It never stops.

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That's exactly what I'm thinking, as a Loogootee basketball fan. Last year the Lions won a state title, and graduated one of their "stars". This year the team could have as many as eight Seniors. The team should be pretty good, and certainly a Regional title isn't an impossible dream. If they win a Regional, almost the entire team graduates, and the next classes play in 2A for a couple of years...

Then again, I am still in favor of going back to single-class basketball, so I won't complain TOO loudly if LHS is "forced" to play against 2A teams. :-)

OK but wouldn't you miss the excitement and rivalries of Sectional 63? We,(Loogootee), Barr-Reeve, and North Daviess especially should protest this ruling, think of Vincennes Rivet the girls basketball success they had, then suddenly they are in 2A for two years?? That is two years lost,without the great rivalries of sectional 63.Someone here said football is to blame, well that is all well and good, but keep it to football!! There have been great amount of private schools winning same class in football for years, punish them! Don't punish Loogootee, Barr-Reeve and NOrth Daviess!! One of those wins that sectional every year and is generally heavily favored at least through regional every year! It's crock to punish success and a winning tradition!! Do as I have and bombard the IHSAA with letters and emails to protest this bone headed move!!!!!

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Something had to be done. Remember it isn't just about basketball. If you look at all sports in the class era, and frankly if you just use a little common sense, you can see that it is not close to being a level playing field. Private schools in metro areas totally dominate in most sports. You need look no further than Muncie Burris in girls volleyball to see there is a problem.

I don't know if this is the best solution or not, but I have no doubt that the IHSAA board members have the best interest of all Indiana high school athletes at heart and I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt and see how this works out.

I'm not giving them the benefit of the doubt! The problem is IHSAA should apply this where it belongs in football!! As for private schools either bump them up a class or use multiplier! Reason IHSAA is fearful of that is because of threat of lawsuits! Well maybe some public schools should sue IHSAA, as a group to protest the implementation of this bone headed move!

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And that's exactly why class sports *%#!?* to begin with. There's no way to ever ever ever ever "level the playing field", so don't even start trying it. It never stops.

True enough. I believe you are a golfer so you understand the problems of trying to handicap a competition in a fair way. There isn't any perfect way to do it, but that doesn't mean we ought to just make everyone play scratch either. Having just one class eliminates a lot of problems, but personally I have seen enough positives to class sports to not quite be ready yet to throw the baby out with the bath water.

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Something had to be done. Remember it isn't just about basketball. If you look at all sports in the class era, and frankly if you just use a little common sense, you can see that it is not close to being a level playing field. Private schools in metro areas totally dominate in most sports. You need look no further than Muncie Burris in girls volleyball to see there is a problem.

I don't know if this is the best solution or not, but I have no doubt that the IHSAA board members have the best interest of all Indiana high school athletes at heart and I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt and see how this works out.

Man I forgot to read all of your statement, IHSAA has the kids interest at heart with this decision??? Are you fricking kidding me?? Who? Loogootee, Barr-Reeve or North Daviess? Best interest at heart, wait til one of them is forced out of this sectional for two years and see how much heart the IHSAA has for the school so punished! Can't you think of tradition!?! of winning by these three schools in boys basketball and tell the kids from school so punished, that you can't compete in sectional 63, because you've won to many tournament games! Your telling me that putting them in a 2A sectional where likely they don't play most of the schools? So what happens to sectional 63 during that time period? Tell me how great that will be? Keep it up and one year sectional 63 could comprise of Wash. Catholic, Rivet and Shoals! Best interest at heart unbelievable!!

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Man I forgot to read all of your statement, IHSAA has the kids interest at heart with this decision??? Are you fricking kidding me?? Who? Loogootee, Barr-Reeve or North Daviess? Best interest at heart, wait til one of them is forced out of this sectional for two years and see how much heart the IHSAA has for the school so punished! Can't you think of tradition!?! of winning by these three schools in boys basketball and tell the kids from school so punished, that you can't compete in sectional 63, because you've won to many tournament games! Your telling me that putting them in a 2A sectional where likely they don't play most of the schools? So what happens to sectional 63 during that time period? Tell me how great that will be? Keep it up and one year sectional 63 could comprise of Wash. Catholic, Rivet and Shoals! Best interest at heart unbelievable!!

I definitely think it's a boneheaded move, but it's not one that would leave WC, Rivet, and Shoals alone in Sectional 63. Since this is apparently going to run in 2-year cycles, Sectional 63 wouldn't lose more than one team at a time. Let's say Loogootee has a good year, wins a Regional next spring, and gets sent to 2A for two years. The odds are, after those two years Loogootee will be sent back down to 1A, unless they win a couple of 2A semi states. Those two years while Loogootee is gone, say Barr-Reeve makes it to the State Finals both years; then they would get promoted to 2A at the same time Loogootee is getting sent back to 1A. Sectional 63 can't lose more than one team. And really, even that is fairly unlikely... it either requires two consecutive Semi-State championships or a State championship plus a Regional.

And even then, it has to "line up" with the two-year cycle. Suppose Barr-Reeve wins the State the next two years. If I'm reading the rule correctly (and I may not be), Barr-Reeve would NOT be sent to 2A in that case. 2011-12 plus 2012-13 make up one 2-year cycle, and 2013-14 and 2014-15 will make up the next 2-year cycle. A school would need 6 "points" in a given cycle. Then again, as I said, I may not be reading the rule correctly.

I do think it's a boneheaded move to level the playing field, but I can definitely understand the frustration of being in 2A volleyball anywhere except Muncie Burris. But I think the policy will backfire more often than not. Imagine if the policy had been in place over the last few years... Washington Hatchets boys basketball would have been in 3A all through the Zeller years, but THIS year the hapless Hatchets would have been thrown into 4A for the first two post-Zeller years. As amusing as I find that thought, I don't see the point of it.

In the long run, all this will do is force the really consistent but small powerhouses (like maybe Park Tudor in boys basketball) to play up a class, two of every four years. The powerhouses in the top class don't have anywhere to go, so the policy won't affect them. The schools that have amazing years now and then might find themselves occasionally affected, when they happen to put together two great years in a row, but not often (since the start of multi-class basketball, none of Loogootee, Barr-Reeve, or North Daviess would ever have been affected).

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I definitely think it's a boneheaded move, but it's not one that would leave WC, Rivet, and Shoals alone in Sectional 63. Since this is apparently going to run in 2-year cycles, Sectional 63 wouldn't lose more than one team at a time. Let's say Loogootee has a good year, wins a Regional next spring, and gets sent to 2A for two years. The odds are, after those two years Loogootee will be sent back down to 1A, unless they win a couple of 2A semi states. Those two years while Loogootee is gone, say Barr-Reeve makes it to the State Finals both years; then they would get promoted to 2A at the same time Loogootee is getting sent back to 1A. Sectional 63 can't lose more than one team. And really, even that is fairly unlikely... it either requires two consecutive Semi-State championships or a State championship plus a Regional.

And even then, it has to "line up" with the two-year cycle. Suppose Barr-Reeve wins the State the next two years. If I'm reading the rule correctly (and I may not be), Barr-Reeve would NOT be sent to 2A in that case. 2011-12 plus 2012-13 make up one 2-year cycle, and 2013-14 and 2014-15 will make up the next 2-year cycle. A school would need 6 "points" in a given cycle. Then again, as I said, I may not be reading the rule correctly.

I do think it's a boneheaded move to level the playing field, but I can definitely understand the frustration of being in 2A volleyball anywhere except Muncie Burris. But I think the policy will backfire more often than not. Imagine if the policy had been in place over the last few years... Washington Hatchets boys basketball would have been in 3A all through the Zeller years, but THIS year the hapless Hatchets would have been thrown into 4A for the first two post-Zeller years. As amusing as I find that thought, I don't see the point of it.

In the long run, all this will do is force the really consistent but small powerhouses (like maybe Park Tudor in boys basketball) to play up a class, two of every four years. The powerhouses in the top class don't have anywhere to go, so the policy won't affect them. The schools that have amazing years now and then might find themselves occasionally affected, when they happen to put together two great years in a row, but not often (since the start of multi-class basketball, none of Loogootee, Barr-Reeve, or North Daviess would ever have been affected).

I was joking about wc, rivet and shoals would be only teams left in 63, geeeeeeeeeeeez. But wait until one of these years when Loogootee, BR or ND are playing Clarksville Providence at Paoli or Eve. Mater Dei at Southridge on a tuesday night and then I want to hear how great this factor is!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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I was joking about wc, rivet and shoals would be only teams left in 63, geeeeeeeeeeeez. But wait until one of these years when Loogootee, BR or ND are playing Clarksville Providence at Paoli or Eve. Mater Dei at Southridge on a tuesday night and then I want to hear how great this factor is!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I think the misinterpretation lies in that this is about "leveling the playing field." It isn't, it's about preventing a schism with those who will accuse successful private schools of recruiting, or other advantages, or whatever. The IHSAA realized something had to be done, or we could have a situation like Georgia, where 1A public schools threatened to form their own organization unless the private schools there were forced into their own class, or other state organizations that totally blockade private schools from competing. This had to be done as fair as possible to avoid any discrimination accusations or possible lawsuits, so this got applied across the board. This is their version of Illinois's multiplier.

While I am NOT necessarily opposed to something like this, I've said elsewhere that the sample size is much too small. Picking two years out for targeting success is a bit too small, because as has correctly been pointed out, a school has a couple of great players and gets deep into the tournament a couple of years, and they could be long gone by the time the school gets moved up for two years. I honestly think that the scale should be applied for a five-year period. Since the period measured would be 2.5 times the current time amount, the point scale would be 15 over the five years, that way you do not have one class causing a school to be bumped up post-career.

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I don't like the whole success factor thing, i mean.. I honestly think it should be for schools who constantly win sectionals or regionals for public.. and private schools would be automatically put in a higher class. that's what I think... not a school that is gonna have a good 1 or 2 year run.. and be back at the bottom.. i mean look at OD in 2006 and 2007.. had 1 special class (the 07 class.. the 2006 class had 1 good kid).. they won sectionals and regionals twice.. semi-state and state once.. the next year in 2008.. they went 5-16... and haven't even came remotely close to being competitive... thats why i think it should be based on longer history.

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Man I forgot to read all of your statement, IHSAA has the kids interest at heart with this decision??? Are you fricking kidding me?? Who? Loogootee, Barr-Reeve or North Daviess? Best interest at heart, wait til one of them is forced out of this sectional for two years and see how much heart the IHSAA has for the school so punished! Can't you think of tradition!?! of winning by these three schools in boys basketball and tell the kids from school so punished, that you can't compete in sectional 63, because you've won to many tournament games! Your telling me that putting them in a 2A sectional where likely they don't play most of the schools? So what happens to sectional 63 during that time period? Tell me how great that will be? Keep it up and one year sectional 63 could comprise of Wash. Catholic, Rivet and Shoals! Best interest at heart unbelievable!!

You are looking at a very specific situation. You have to understand that the IHSAA has to look at the big picture. A problem was identified across all sports and looking at all the information they had they developed a solution. Maybe it isn't the best solution. Maybe it will in fact work out very well. But to answer your question of if they were looking at the best interest of the athletes at schools like Loogootee and BR - of course they were. The whole idea is to avoid situations like Loogootee faced when they played Marquette Catholic for a state championship in volleyball, or when BR also played Marquette Catholic in volleyball and when they played Bowman Academy in boys basketball.

The IHSAA obviously should not be looking at how this would affect sectional 63 boys basketball, or any other specific situation like that. Their mission is to try and provide for state chamiponships, boys and girls, in numerous sports and to try and make those tournaments as fair as possible for all involved. It seems to me that it will (eventually) put schools like Cathedral and Evansville Mater Dei where they belong in football. It will also work well in some cases in basketball as Park Tudor (assuming the coach stays there), Bowman Academy, and probably Noll should be playing up from where they are. Obviously there are some downsides as well. I'm guessing a great program like for example LCC football will not look at moving up as "punishment" but rather as an opportunity to achieve a greater victory. If every school takes that attitude I think this can work out OK.

Finally, as far as BR, Loogootee, ND not all being in the same sectional. I'm pretty sure the world could survive that. It is almost a certainty with the 2 year reclass that sometimes they won't be in the same class anyway (either ND or Loogootee or both will be 2A sometimes).

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You are looking at a very specific situation. You have to understand that the IHSAA has to look at the big picture. A problem was identified across all sports and looking at all the information they had they developed a solution. Maybe it isn't the best solution. Maybe it will in fact work out very well. But to answer your question of if they were looking at the best interest of the athletes at schools like Loogootee and BR - of course they were. The whole idea is to avoid situations like Loogootee faced when they played Marquette Catholic for a state championship in volleyball, or when BR also played Marquette Catholic in volleyball and when they played Bowman Academy in boys basketball.

The IHSAA obviously should not be looking at how this would affect sectional 63 boys basketball, or any other specific situation like that. Their mission is to try and provide for state chamiponships, boys and girls, in numerous sports and to try and make those tournaments as fair as possible for all involved. It seems to me that it will (eventually) put schools like Cathedral and Evansville Mater Dei where they belong in football. It will also work well in some cases in basketball as Park Tudor (assuming the coach stays there), Bowman Academy, and probably Noll should be playing up from where they are. Obviously there are some downsides as well. I'm guessing a great program like for example LCC football will not look at moving up as "punishment" but rather as an opportunity to achieve a greater victory. If every school takes that attitude I think this can work out OK.

Finally, as far as BR, Loogootee, ND not all being in the same sectional. I'm pretty sure the world could survive that. It is almost a certainty with the 2 year reclass that sometimes they won't be in the same class anyway (either ND or Loogootee or both will be 2A sometimes).

How fricking eloquent! Your really full of crap aren't you??? You must be on the IHSAA board, hell maybe your Jerrels from North Daviess! I'm glad your so in love with Bobby Cox and Executive Committee, and being there cheerleader in Southwestern Indiana!:P

Edited by Lagote74

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Loogootee will be right in the middle of 2A in a few years anyway, after absorbing Shoals when it closes... ohmy.gif

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Loogootee will be right in the middle of 2A in a few years anyway, after absorbing Shoals when it closes... ohmy.gif

Will that new school be called Martin County High School? Or will it be called Loogootee?

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Loogootee will be right in the middle of 2A in a few years anyway, after absorbing Shoals when it closes... ohmy.gif

The thought of that makes me want to throw up. I know of another plan that puts center township to Loogootee, Lost River, Halbert to Springs Valley and Mitchelltree to Mitchell. I hope thats the way it should be done, considering the long bus ride to Loogootee from the far areas that are closer to the two previously mentioned schools. Yes let them go east and north, they are lawless no man lands anyway, probably mate with wolves and mountain lions! ;)

Edited by Lagote74

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Will that new school be called Martin County High School? Or will it be called Loogootee?

We are getting off message boys, this is far from a done deal. Shoals is viable for at least three more years, in the meantime, some honest public school trying to maintain and build a program will be screwed by the dubious "success(jealousy) factor". Back on that subject I would have thought 8 pts which would be two state titles in row would have been more a sign of domination? How is winning one year going to semi-state second year after reclassification a sign of complete domination!?! IHSAA idiots, where the hell did that fricking Bobby Cox come from anyway?:angry:

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The thought of that makes me want to throw up. I know of another plan that puts center township to Loogootee, Lost River, Halbert to Springs Valley and Mitchelltree to Mitchell. I hope thats the way it should be done, considering the long bus ride to Loogootee from the far areas that are closer to the two previously mentioned schools. Yes let them go east and north, they are lawless no man lands anyway, probably mate with wolves and mountain lions! ;)

Mitcheltree would be better served in the North Lawrewnce district. I assure you, Bret Szabo can find uses for the giants Shoals breeds!

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